60 Minutes of Fucking DarthDud on Every Goddamn Leaderboard

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60 Minutes of Fucking DarthDud on Every Goddamn Leaderboard

Postby Jade » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Jick: I'm Jick
Riff: I'm Riff
Hotstuff: I'm Hotstuff. I could have sworn Riff just got killed. I was scared.
Jick:Riff was just hulking out. He gets mad when people argue about his challenge path.
Riff: Not really.
Jick: Yeah you don't care. I'm the one getting all the bile, getting my hackles up, getting the heartburn.
Riff: I was grateful you had my back. I know I can trust these guys.
Jick: Hotstuff have you been reading all the kerfluffle?
Hotstuff: Has there been any real particular issue?
Riff: Just that one in Dev. The issues we expected with this challenge path.
Hotstuff: I haven't been paying particularly close attention to it.
Riff: A Kerfluffle sounds like a cute anime monster.
Jick: We had an actual letter from a guy trying to recover his account that the email had expire for. And it ended with 'oh and by the way I've been in prison on a murder charge. It's quite an imbroglio.' So we don't know what to do. It seems legit
Hotstuff: The murder?
Jick: Yeah. Dude's totally in jail for killing a dude.

Jick: So do we want to talk about this path crap
H: Sure
J I'm going to state the problem as I see and someone in the forums is going to say 'that isn't the problem at all you dipshit. Do you even play this game?' and I'm going to say 'Nope'. So we intended this path to be a slow paced path that is a more interesting version of oxy who don't have the time to play for real but don't want to play Oxy because Oxy is bullshit. I'm paraphrasing.
R More or less. People who don't have time to play 300 odd turns to play a normal ascension, who would be playing oxy or teet. I wanted to give them some with some more flavor to do as an alternate.
J So we had the same objections we had to boris from the people who want to shoot for the seasonal boards. Which is that it's too grueling to play enough runs to accumulate enough points to start a run at your highest peak.
R My contention is that once you have all 30 skill points you lose a lot of what makes the path interesting in choosing skills. And if you get to that point that quickly that reduces the effective lifespan of that path for the people it was designed for
J And you have to keep in mind that the next path, nobody is going to care about. Because our goal for that path is to not have it interfere with Crimbo Like remember trendy? When you guys were all 'you should give us a path where you can only use the last year's worth of mr store items'? And I said 'here you go' and they were like 'pfft. Fuck that.'
H It's still a good idea to have that in the world
R I have to imagine that eventually someone will do a contest based around it
J Everybody agreed. Not Everybody. Like 10 dudes agreed Something has to be done about the rate of skill production. Burn out. Too good to be this soon after boris. Also they've been replaced with Bulldog hybrids
R Or filled their mouths with marshmallows
J So every option we presented got met with 'no because that would be a fuck you to Group A'. And what I said on the Monday show was 'our failure to reach consensus leads me to believe I should do nothing'. Which is where I'm at again. Where people are going 'no don't do nothing. We can consent' after 2 days of super frustrating arguing in the forums. Apparently I made someone rage quit for saying 'that thing you said about Riff is shitty and insulting'.
R Apparently they Rage quit every other month though
J Then I'm glad I got to be the cause this time. I've said a lot of mean and shitty things on the forums. That isn't even in the top ten this year. I mean I once told someone they looked and smelled like farts. And they were like 'what does that even mean'. So we know how I feel which is sicking of arguing about it. We know how Riff feels which is that this path should be slow. How do you feel Hotstuff?
H I like completionism. I like building up characters. It's like my favorite thing. I could imagine being frustrated at a deliberately slow path that also had 30 bits I could collect if I ascended 30 times, or 15 if I'm doing it extra slow.
J Here is my counterargument. You in your very first zombie run can get all 30 zombie skills
H Not permanently. The kind of character building I'm talking about is the points that I get for completing a run. Not the having the skills once that as soon as I ascend are all gone
R And respecting that point of view is why we didn't cap skill points. We want that character building to be available that is a draw. We just don't want you to be able to do it in 6 weeks
J I think it was a mistake to put in a meaningful run to put in a reward for doing enough runs of Boris to get all the skills within the scope of a normal ascension
H There's also the commendations
J But if there's no character progression the nature of the leaderboards won't change. Or if it was such that every run took 4 weeks. And you got a permanent skill point for it. But the leaderboards were how many turns you took because every run took 28 days. Which we should have done that's a good idea for this path. the turncount thing would still be what the leaderboards reflect. But what we have here is... I hate to use the word entitlement, so I'll say 'butthole expectations'. That any challenge path we issue has any sort of character building has to be completable within 90 days. I do not want us to be constrained by that.
H Is it that they need to be done within 90 days or that they want to be able to do it but we keep coming out with more content.
J I would argue that a casual person does not care. I looked at this, when I proposed the 5 skill cap. It would have only affected 37% of people who did Boris. The majority would not have noticed. If we had raised it to 10, it goes to 11 or 12 percent. For all of the sound and fury whatever we did would impact a small number of people.
H 12% seems like a lot of people
J 8000 people did Boris runs, so less than a thousand people would have noticed. The majority would not have been aware of that cap
H But those 1000 are the people who are the most excited.
J But they're also the most difficult to please. Making a change to please them affects more than just them
H I'm not offering a solution. I'm just saying I understand their position. If I had an awesome solution I would say it.
R I racked my brain for one but I just don't think there is one
H I probably would have just increased the points, which I know is not what you want Riff. I would have given like 5 for Hardcore and 2 for Softcore. It still gives that sense of progression But it is also much quicker and brings the end much closer both in real time and game time.
J But they're going to continue to exist for the rest of the game. so if we start doing all of these challenge paths such that you can finish them in 3 weeks or 4 weeks or 5 weeks or whatever number is small enough to get people to stop pissing and moaning about how much effort it takes to get on the leaderboard.
H But we already have 2 or 3 years of content in the regular game if you want all the skills
J But listen to me. What I am saying is if we make one of these challenge paths that a fully decked out dude is the optimal meat farming dude, that is something that we will have introduced that takes anyone with no effort.. not no effort. If a new account today can with 4 weeks of zombie runs make the optimal meat farming account, that is something we will have to live with. If it takes 5 months, fewer people are going to do that.
H That seems a really weird argument though. Right there's some optimal meat farming thing.
J So kevin, why don't we give 3x more karma for runs? Cause people are going to get it eventually they just want to get it faster
H We do
Riff Why does Olfaction cost 200 lucre instead of 20?
H But we do give extra karma. We've already gone in that direction
J So why do we have to even faster with optional shit/
H We aren't required
J If for every boris run you're earning karma to buy skills and getting this alternate advancement that has nothing to do with anything else in the game than all of this is people stomping their feet saying 'I want this extra shit to happen faster'
R And if it only takes 3 months to complete the zombie path than that's only 3 months that the path is useful for those people who would otherwise be stuck doing HC Oxy.I would prefer that be useful for that purpose for the indefinite future.
H What do you mean useful?
J I agree, that doesn't make any sense to me either.
H Like they're always going to be able to play this path. They can just start with 30 skills
J When you start out with 30 skills it's no longer a slow path
R I also think it's not as interesting
H The thing is we're always adding more content to the game. So it's not like KoL gets stale. there's always going to be things to do. So I'm not as worried as people being able to complete stuff.
J So your argument is there's not a compelling reason not to do it. But that's not a reason to do it.
H Talk about the time. Even at the high end It's going to take doing nothing else to get 30 zombie points in softcore, playing balls out. That precludes you from being able to play pvp in a meaningful way.
R That depends on next season's pvp
J At what point is it ok for a leaderboard to reward dedication to a specific task? If I were better at my job, it would be impossible to be on the pvp leaderboard and the ascension leaderboard at the same time
H Really?
J I don't think so
H Do they have to be mutually exclusive? Why do you feel that way?
J They don't have to be but I think the game would be better if it were?
H Really?
J If one person could be the best at everything. If Fucking Darthdud was on every goddamn leaderboard in the game, than that is one person on all the leaderboards that 500 people could be on.
H But he has more dedication in this example than any other person, so he figures out how to be the best at all the things
J But the fact that that is possible means it's a badly designed system
R you think there should be some degree of mutual exclusivity?
J Yes. I think in a robust system has inherent mutual exclusivity. A system with 500 meaningful things to pursue is broken if you can maximally pursue all of them at the same time. The reason we don't give you one of every item in the game is those leaderboards for those collections are meant to be individual things to strive for. I don't know man. I feel like part of this is just that I've gotten on the defensive because it's the usual fucking suspects complaining about this stuff. It's frustrating to me that the people you characterize as the most enthusiastic and dedicated players are the only people who were shitting in my mouth about Boris which otherwise was the most popular and well received thing I've ever created. So to say those are guys are the most dedicated, they are the most hardcore, so we should listen to them, in that particular case I don't think that we should.
H I'm not saying we should listen to them, I'm saying we should keep it in mind. I don't have a great idea. You're specifically creating a challenge path for people with less real life time. And then you are saying if you want to max out this character it's going to take 200 days. Which is like our longtime goal for olfaction would be. Like if someone was doing 10 day hardcore runs it'll take them a year.
Jick: I think the argument here is that the target audience for this path is not people who are concerned with how fast they can max it out.
Riff: They enjoy advancing their character but reaching the end of that goal is not the end all be all
H: It's not like that is the sum total of the game itself. We are creating these time intensive additional systems. And I just wonder how many of these things we can add.
Jick: They are not time sensitive
H But it's like we created 10 manuals of olfaction that you could only strive for one at a time.
J Goddamnit it's not like that. It's not 10 manuals of olfaction. It's like creating 10 clan dungeons. Olfaction is useful for everything. Zombie points are not like that. Boris is not like that.
H zombie points are useful in Zombie runs. I think this is like a fundamental difference in the way we play games and characters. I play to do all the achievements or collect everything or whatever. You've done that with a couple games.
J So sure. Do you think that maybe the WoW Devs should have made the timbermaw rep grind was doable in the time it took to do the quests? Because this is the argument. You're putting this long term goal in but to complete it I have to spend more time than I want to
H That's different. I can throw more time at that grind if I want to. KoL is a strange system where we don't let you play as long as you want on any given day. Especially in Zombie. There's a thing I want but it's going to take months and months even if I wanted to spend 2 weeks solid doing nothing else.
J I guess my argument is that wanting to start a zombie run with 30 points is not an important or sensible thing to want.
H Does that make it less meaningful? Like a lot of things in our games aren't important
J It doesn't make it less desirable but what determines desirous our of a particular goal is how much effort it takes. And what I'm bristling against is that we have this obligation to let people max out the path in 90 days. And we don't. And it will drive me fucking crazy if we are bound by this precedent that when we do a challenge path with progression within the path, because that is just a crazy thing that someone made up. That is not authorial intent. That is just something someone wants that is not us.
H But we close the leaderboard when the path closes
J The leaderboard has nothing to do with the intended audience for this path
R Yes
H So why do we have it?
J So go disable it and see how people react
H So why not make a leaderboard for whatever the path is supposed reward. I mean I don't know how to do that, but it's the same board for every other path.
J And I would argue that in any video game I have ever designed the person I have in mind to please is not a person who will ever be on a leaderboard except maybe the weird or collection board.
R If it had occurred to me and if thought it was feasible for this to be released not as a challenge path but just as a random optional path that went into the game I would have pushed that.
J The way we introduce paths precludes that.
H Do you see how inclusion of a leaderboard without actually thinking about them engenders these kinds of complaints that you hate?
J I suppose that I do. But if there was no leaderboard the same people would be complaining about something else.
H Would they? It just seems like we're talking out of both sides of our head. We're saying this path isn't for people who want to go fast, and then we turn around and award the fastest people.
R I think another aspect is the perception that you need all 30 skills. That it's not worth trying without them. Why not view the leaderboard as the people who did the best runs in that amount of time regardless of their points.
J I don't think it turns out like that in practice.
H You definitely have a mathematical advantage with all the skills. You just have all of the advantages.
J Maybe the thing we need to do is starting putting leaderboards on challenge paths that encourage the things we want to encourage. But I have no idea how to do that. Speed is a thing with established metrics with a lot of game systems in place to support it, deliberately or otherwise.
R I floated the idea earlier what if the leaderboards only counted your zero skill run?
J The forums would argue that that would punish people for spading out the content.
H I would agree
J You agree that's a fair way to characterize it, or how it would be characterized by those critical of us?
H The way I would do it is I would run a multi through it a couple times to figure it out and then play it on an account I care about hoping for good luck. We cannot please everyone so I don't think we need to stress about this too much but we need to recognize we create many of the complaints we see because of the way we structure the game
R I'm bummed about the way we can't fix this but sometimes we have to say 'sorry guys'
J To me that seems fair. 'sorry you don't like this one, maybe the next one will be better'. That seems a perfectly reasonable stance. But they will continue to poison the forums with their shit.
H Do you think they'll poison the forums? I feel like our playerbase is so laconic when it comes to this. They're great about this.
R I mean we're definitely above the other video game forums. These arguments we're seeing are not the worst arguments we've seen on the forums.
H There are some people who shit on everything we do. That's just the way of the world. Because we're stupid we listen to everyone's voice. We need to ignore them. It's easy for me to say when I've literally been doing that. I've been very Zen about the forums.
J It's never like personal attacks on your ability to do your job.
H But it feels like it. When people criticize your decisions.
J But what I'm saying Hotstuff is I take public credit for all of your decisions. All of the criticism is directed at me. Or Riff. Because I wanted people to know that Riff designed this path.
R And I've been getting a lot of complimentary stuff about it from the people who I designed it for. I'm awesome.
H Are we getting any complaints about the bosses?
J I think that was just them showing up too early.
R Yeah we fixed that, and the change to the cost of plague claws probably made that much easier. I think plague claws is probably overpowered now, but it's too late to fix that.
J It's too late to fix anything
H It's important to feel awesome, I think. So it's ok if we have some overpowered stuff.
J Well at least people complaining in this path can take solace that soon they'll be complaining about the level 9 quest instead of this path.
H You're talking about changing some paradigm
J No I'm not it's a whole new quest
H Yeah that's going to be cool
J No it's not. I mean it is and most people will agree but the forums will still be.. the problem with this poison shit spewage is that it is disproportionately loud.
R Are you still helping the Baron or do I need to rewrite that zombie text?
J No you're not so you'll have to rewrite that. I mean I don't know that it will roll during zombies.. yes it will
R Yeah but I still have to fix it
J oh right these paths are around for forever so there's no fucking hurry.
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